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  • lilbuddha - January 28, 2012 8:09 a.m.

    Having played mmo's since their infancy, and everything in between... Developers need to make MMO's accessible enough for a profitable population, but then just completely ignore the opinions of "casuals". They have no clue what makes an mmo good. They want instant gratification, IWIN buttons. It makes for an incredibly dull game. There are two things that matter: RISK VS REWARD, you should feel a sense of accomplishment for killing/completing a raid or whatever. Not a "yay I beat the boss [on easy mode] and I got all this great gear [that is only 2% worse than ultra hard mode gear]" And separate rulesets for PvE and PvP. Seriously. Separate them. Or you know, you could go blizzard's route and just completely screw over both by simplifying the talent trees to 7 choices and claiming through and through that it's "way more versatile and all your choices matter". EQ Pre-PoP Mid to late game, DAoC RvRvR + questing, FF11 Endgame, Warhammer T1-T3 + Lore collecting, WoW Vanilla Raiding/Leveling and WoW BC Raiding/Leveling were the high points of MMO gaming in my experience. The majority of people here sound like they've put maybe 50hrs into MMO's in total in their lifetime...clearly its NOT the genre for them. Stop trying to turn the genre into every other game (and essentially a single player experience). Voice an opinion when you've actually experienced more than half the leveling content and a few PuG raids in a game. Voice an opinion when you've got more than a year+ played time (All mmo's combined i'm probably sitting a 3+ years played time ie: 26280 hours). If anything developers need to keep MMO's as MMO's and change the single player games to have better larger scale Co-Op experiences. A Mass Effect type game with a solid 4 player mode, which also had some sort of randomized mission creation would be a huge success. Borrowing themes from MMO's, but being its own entity.
  • hellodesdemona - January 28, 2012 9:32 a.m.

    Clearly you have no idea how business for MMO's work. How many of WOW's 12 million players have more than 1 year play time? .01%? An MMO NEEDS to attract new players and casuals in order to stay in business. Ten thousand people who play 1 year+, but only pay a monthly subscription of 15 dollars will not sustain a company. If you are proposing that companies exclude casuals, than be prepared to pay an inflated subscription. Let's do the math: 12 million people at $15 a month= $180,000,000 per month. If you exclude all but the most hardcore 10,000 people: 10,000 at $15 a month= $150,000 a month. BIG difference. What would subscriptions have to be to match the current $180,000,000 a month if only the most hardcore 10,000 played? I hope you're ready to pay $18,000 a month in subscriptions.
  • lilbuddha - January 28, 2012 11:29 a.m.

    Wow's current subscriptions centered around it becoming popular, not becoming a better game. I dare say that the game itself could become EQ-esque hard overnight and subs would increase rather than decrease. People flocked to WoW after it became popular with the hardcore. The "hardcore" have left wow, and now we are starting to see the mass public follow. 200k subs, 300k subs, 500k subs, 800k subs, over the past several months lost. It's adding up. Your numbers are also retardedly wrong and don't represent reality at all. As I said before, Blizz needed to make the game accessible but also having Risk Vs Reward to it. This simply doesn't exist anymore. You can do ALL content in the game with a pug group. The "hard" modes supposedly made just for "hardcore" players gets nerfed regularly. Its completely counter intuitive to the point. The lack of something SIGNIFICANT for gamers to strive towards leaves no reason to continue playing. I quit at the end of Lich King; I could step into Catalysm today, level my character to 85 in 2 days, play every dungeon in one more day, raid the first tier the next, the 2nd the next day, and PuG the final tier of content over the course of the next week. I could literally experience the entire content of the expansion in less than month, with minimal issues. I would have zero sense of accomplishment. I had zero sense of accomplishment in Lich King, save for a select few server firsts I did...and those were fleeting at best, especially after having steamrolled the normal version, seeing the sameish gear, seeing the sameish mechanics, seeing the same quest dialogue weeks prior. As much as the game needs to be approachable, wow has gone far beyond that.
  • KnowYourPokemon - January 29, 2012 8:42 a.m.

    Funny thing about WoW subs "following" the "hard-core" is that WoW subs started to drop right when they tried to make things difficult again. Sure if you went into Cata today you'd do things pretty easy, but when the expansion started up until 4.3 came out? Ha. I'd also like to see you back up your ridiculous statement with completing all the content within the month given the incredibly low number of guilds to down Heroic Rag let alone Heroic DW. The one thing I actually agree with with what you've said is the nerfing to the heroic mode raids, I could see where they were coming from when they did nerf the raids but now it seems they've finally smartened up by adding raid finder difficulty. And for those who still want more of a challenge with normal and heroic they can simply turn off the buff that the raid is going to give to bring the difficulty back up. I honestly have to laugh when people talk about how easy LK was too given how the vast majority of guilds didn't even down him in heroic until the buff you were given in his raid reached 30%. The change WoW really needs with it's difficulty is not to require normal mode to attempt heroic modes, you should just be able to walk in and try the heroic fights if you want. You also do realize that a large part of WoW's subscribers are in China right? Which have shown to be way more attracted to the true hard-core old school MMO's? The odds are more in favour to them just growing tired of a game that isn't and has never truly been hard-core to begin with. As far as casual gamers go do you really think they give a damn if "the best players" leave the game? Hell no. What do they care if someone they don't even know stops playing a game they play? The odds of that being the actual case for subscriber losses are slim to none in comparison to the actual logical reasoning. And lastly, before I get the automatic title of "WoW fanboy" for simply defending a game. I barely play WoW as it is, I probably put a total of 3 hours into the game a week. There are better games out there than WoW, more so in other genre's than the MMO genre of course with exceptions, and I have no problem with people giving some logical reasoning as to whether they enjoy a game or not but that's the difference, you dislike WoW now so clearly it's a horrible game, there can't be any mid ground where "Yeah WoW's an ok game but I don;t rarely care for it" it's either "WoW's the best!" or "WoW's the crappiest game ever" ya know except for "the good old days" which were far from great to begin with.
  • lilbuddha - January 30, 2012 4:06 a.m.

    Actually, yes, the casuals DO care about where the "hardcore" go. The hardcore are the ones that generate a. the income for an MMO in it's infancy to get popular in the first place b. the blogs/articles/forum posts/word-of-mouth telling everyone about the "latest and greatest" The entertainment world is a group of followers, with very few actually leading the pack with 'new' ideas. I guarantee that if the entirety of a Top end raiding guild like (i dunno anymore) Vodka all of a sudden announced "wow is dead, we're playing rift now", that subs wouldn't be affected ? They most certainly would, in huge numbers. And as far as "completing all content", I wouldn't have to step into a heroic raid or even a normal raid to "complete all content" because it's handed to players that are able to select the LFR option and just faceroll through the whole thing while others carry them (not that I would do that). The people that DO want to progress, these claims that people haven't cleared it... it's BECAUSE of all the nerfs they hand out. People have already been trained to expect them, they know that they can either work and progress, or just wait 2 weeks and they'll be able to get over that hump with little difficulty. You know what that does? It makes the Risk vs Reward players leave/quit guilds, and move on to other stuff...and who takes the place of those people "IWIN NOW" raiders, who have little to no patience, and happily decide "hey lets just wait a week or a month and it'll be so much easier with that 10% buff, I'm go play MW3 in the meantime !". Even if you wanted to have a "purist" guild and wanted to take down content at its maximum, you CAN'T. The minute you get a snag in your progression (as not everyone in the world are #1 players), you end up hitting some sort of nerf that blizzard forces on you. You can't flip on/off their buffs/nerfs. Sure on rare occasion you might be able to, but then you ignore the "XX will no longer breathe YY during ZZ" and all the other stuff that vastly change mechanics in those pre-% buff scenarios. It's all a mess and I'm sure it'll leak over to other mmo's despite it being a horrible way to trickle content to the idiots.
  • KnowYourPokemon - January 28, 2012 7:36 a.m.

    Sorry but the only ones you have to blame when it comes to the evolution in MMO's is the players themselves, why should a company that is out to make money take a risk in changing the formula when we've shown that we're willing to pay for it month after month. It's the same reason Call of Duty hasn't changed in any amazing way, people throw their money at it so companies give them more of what they've SHOWN they want, not what they SAY they want.
  • hellodesdemona - January 28, 2012 5:48 a.m.

    As other have pointed out, this seems to be a community problem rather than developer. Developers seem to be doing their damndest to shake things up a bit...and then no one bites. So, of course they will go back to a tired formula. It is interesting that the attitude is that World of Warcraft is the monster than needs slain. What will happen when that occurs? I suppose we'll have to wait and see...
  • psycho ninja 4 - January 28, 2012 1:58 a.m.

    I remember on talkradar you were discussing SWTOR and you complained that they didn't use enough fetures from other MMOs.You said thats how they survive.
  • nai1210 - January 28, 2012 1:47 a.m.

    First thing mmo's need to do is actually have a proper combat system,star wars old republic look's amazing in it's cut scene's actually wacthing people play it spamming one button doing the same move over and over with the occasional healing move thrown in is absolutley tedious not to mention boring as hell don't care how good the story is meant to be,i know i would never be able to put up with that soul destroyingly boring gameplay,i have never been a huge fan of turn based rpg titles but even the combat in the likes of final fantasy are good to play/watch and the newer final fantasy's that play out in real time for me are more fun.MMO's battles should look and feel epic but they don't they just play out very very boringly.
  • lilbuddha - January 28, 2012 8:13 a.m.

    I play one of the "easiest" classes in SWTOR (Sith Inquisitor Sorc) and make use of all but 3 of my abilities regularly. Clearly -watching- someone play a game is grounds to make a such a great assumption. MMO battles can be incredibly epic, you're just not looking [or trying] to find how/where it is epic.
  • reach110 - January 28, 2012 12:48 p.m.

    All your arguments seem to be that no one has logged as many hours in MMOs as you have or are even playing the game properly. You're defining the entire user experience of these games by your own rules, your own way of playing the game. A game needs to be accessible and enjoyable to a wide audience, not just the players as devoted as you. The whole argument in this article, I feel, is that refreshing the "tried-and-true" formula of MMOs isn't enough. I get excited when I hear the concepts of games like APB, only to be horribly disappointed when they crash and burn. This is because I'd really love to have a game that is Massively Multiplayer, in a world as vast as Azeroth or others, but with a different set of rules. Why do we think that if a game has a huge world that accommodates a large number of players that gameplay has to be confined to "kill ten enemies, bring me this scroll?" We're not bashing on your games, we're saying that as they are built right now, they're not our thing and we're interested in a change of pace.
  • lilbuddha - January 28, 2012 1:50 p.m.

    Well my argument to them above guy was that he based his opinions off looking at someone else play the game. By his logic I'd watch someone playing soccer and claim that it's a pointless game of people running back and forth with no real attempt at making a goal. It simply isn't true. If you're going to play something, then actually take the time to make a judgement based on the whole thing, not just the minimal effort that you decide to invest. You want simple, instant satisfaction ? MMO's aren't for you. You have to actually learn a little bit to be effective in them (and to have the most "fun"). How many people do you think jumped on the WoW bandwagon simply because it was popular, with no real interest in that gameplay style at all ? I can name a dozen celebrities that have. (Whether paid to or not is up to you to decide). People need to stop looking for something more out an MMO and just play the game that already exist that are exactly what they want. And get off my lawn.
  • tim-zielhuis - January 27, 2012 11:24 p.m.

    you didn't mention EVE Online... i haven't played it for a while but it is certainly a unique mmo my biggest problem with mmo's are the quests, in mmo world... its quantity over quality. in swtor, all quests have nice voiceovers... that doesnt make them any more interesting, its still piss... it might come in a glass, but when you taste it? you know... its still piss
  • Genericide - January 27, 2012 10:30 p.m.

    I've played and enjoyed MMOs myself, but I do agree that new directions to the genre are certainly welcome. Most people complain about the repetitiveness of MMOs, but the problem is that this is a trade-off developers take in exchange for creating a humongous persistent world. There is only so much time and money one can use to design a game, and it's difficult to keep quality when the quantity is hundreds or even thousands of hours. The biggest MMOs in the market have polished the existing formula to a mirror shine but it is true that the formula needs shaking up. However, this is far, faaaar easier said than done. Even the most deep and interesting and deep of non-MMOs today would get dull if repeated for hundreds of hours, and thus keeping quality over such a length is something I believe in feasible with raw manpower. It isn't impossible, however, and with clever use of procedural tools (that is, systems that help develop content in automated fashion, which is not necessarily the same as random generation) could accomplish such a goal. Basically what I'm trying to say is yes it would be great if such an MMO was made and it should be, but it's very difficult to do. So be patient, and although we should never stop expecting better of the genre don't do what thoughtless people do and accuse existing MMO developers of laziness. Seems they have a tough job to do.
  • MrSuitMan - January 27, 2012 9:39 p.m.

    Monster Hunter. That's the best MMO that's not an MMO.
  • darkvare - January 27, 2012 8:57 p.m.

    i like mmos expansive worlds but i really hate having to depend on people i would love to just go around doing the quests all by myself but that would kill the whole multiplayer aspect
  • laurenhiya21 - January 27, 2012 8:40 p.m.

    Most of this sounds like you saying what isn't good about WoW rather than MMOs in general... but that might just be me since I only really know about Mabinogi (the only MMO I can stand playing because it has no classes or level cap) and a little about WoW (since my bf plays it) I do agree with the fact that MMO's need to change though
  • D0CCON - January 27, 2012 6:44 p.m.

    You just explained why the MMO is my least favorite of all genres. Some may balk at the idea for paying for XBL. I balk at people who are willing to pay 2-3 times as much for one of these boring time sinks.
  • Caenlen25 - January 27, 2012 6:31 p.m.

    I used to love MMO's. Been burnt out for a few years now, tried Rift, tried TOR... I just can't get hooked anymore. Going to enjoy other genres then give Guild Wars 2 a try, even though I didn't like the first one. Glad to see this article and know I am not alone. :D
  • Wade D McGinnis - January 27, 2012 6:31 p.m.

    Arg there is a "does not point out" after author....derp.
  • Wade D McGinnis - January 27, 2012 6:29 p.m.

    While the points in the article are valid, but the author points that every time a game dev tries to evolve the genre, they don't have the subs or fan support to keep the game running. This is not just a lack of evolution by the dev but a flaw in the community as a whole. Side note by MMO's are never ending. The choice of structure for content at the end is similar with the genre but the content itself is evolving. The mechanics of the genre are evolving. Take a look back at what you had to do in a raid during classic WoW and today, things have progressively gone forward just at a slower pace. Even when GW2 comes out, you still are on the tread mill, you won't get away from it. Instead of raiding your going to be in a state of constant questing (dynamic events).
  • RedHarlow - January 27, 2012 6:25 p.m.

    If it sells, they won't change it.
  • BladedFalcon - January 27, 2012 6:07 p.m.

    Hmm... aside from a couple dozen hours in Ragnarok Online, (Which I got drawn in by the nicely made sprites, but turned off by the boringly annoying and repetitive game-play.) I have never really played MMOs... And honestly, reading this, I'm glad to know I haven't missed much. My cynism and apathy for the genre aside though. This was a pretty well written article, and does make some good points regarding the state of a certain genre. And really, it doesn't necessarily limit itself to MMOs. More and more it feels like a once a decade, a standout games comes out that sells millions, and then everyone else flocks in to make copies of that game with different setting and such. (Such is the case of modern FPS, for example.)
  • garnsr - January 27, 2012 6:03 p.m.

    I think a good MMO would be something like Playstation Home, with a number of different genres available in one game. Having a community that you can do lots of different things with, instead of just whacking rats, is really what we want, isn't it? A world that lets us do lots of different things with other people.

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